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Author: Subject: RP getting 10 wins in 17 games is simply not baseball
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posted on 7-30-2013 at 07:51 AM Edit Post
Well, yeah.

I was suggesting a fix for a) a perceived second problem with ABE's coding and b) a go-along with the Admin fix and c) a way to at least stop skewing the Awards formula so badly, which also has a few panties in a twist.

Should have made that clearer, I s'pose.

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posted on 7-30-2013 at 01:01 PM Edit Post
Putting a cap on the number faced until tired
is great.

However, is 10 too high ?

Not sure, but this might cause too great a percent
of starters to leave before the 5th inning.

I would suggesta much lower cap. Say 4 or 5
which is basically the next inning.

Reemeber, before this option was implemented,
the number was zero.





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posted on 7-30-2013 at 01:25 PM Edit Post
I would think 4 or 5 would be a better fit also.





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posted on 7-30-2013 at 03:06 PM Edit Post
Funny... I was thinking 7. 10 is too many.

Are you talking about the SP setting, the RP, or both setting? I expect they are both at fault. The Starter setting should have a lower cap.





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posted on 7-30-2013 at 09:56 PM Edit Post
10 may be too high.

On the MLB side, I was thinking that the added benefit of using this strategy would be that you could save money on pitchers. You could pay for your entire pitching staff for the cost of one elite pitcher by signing decent RPs. There may also be some benefit to having hitters face a different pitcher each time they bat.

Tyson





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posted on 7-30-2013 at 10:32 PM Edit Post
People do try different ways to use pitchers in MLB, too. This system the Rockies tried last season, for instance:

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/rockies--pitching-strategy-is-historically-wacky--and-not-working-.html

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posted on 7-30-2013 at 10:51 PM Edit Post
I think 6 is more than sufficient for this setting, looking at the database very few people have it set higher and those that do are likely doing so to achieive the results bundy is. I've coded this on the game side on beta, anything over 6 will be treated as 6 in the sim. We will move this change over during the Dynasty offseason.

Thanks!





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posted on 7-30-2013 at 11:11 PM Edit Post
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Originally posted by Admin
There may also be some benefit to having hitters face a different pitcher each time they bat.

Tyson


Statistically, the Twins *might* be support for this argument [and are, in fact, the embodiment of this model] but I don't see a lot of teams RUSHING out to emulate the poor starting pitching.

I believe you're rolling the dice when you go to the bullpen and am appalled by the inappropriate quick hooks. How do you know your reliever is going to "have it"? Most starters are vulnerable in that first inning while they figure out their stuff and what the umpire is giving them SO NATURALLY we should just trot them out willy-nilly as soon as somebody gets roughed up instead of letting them work it out.

I don't think pitchers need to be iron men but it seems silly to pull one of the best guys on your staff unless you have a good reason; starter is tired, batter owns starter, reliever owns batter, getting good odds playing lefty-righty, etc.





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posted on 7-31-2013 at 04:17 AM Edit Post
In our league, Jake Sisko now stands at 21-0 after 35 games this season. There has been a lot of protest from my fellow owners concerning the 'gaming' of the system and how there needs to be a solution. I agree that there should be a short leash allowed for a pitcher who is struggling and it is not so easy just to close a loophole.
I completely agree with the idea about increasing the injury index on pitchers who make more than maybe 90 appearances during the season. Sisko made 120 appearances last season with no penalty while coasting to a Cy Young award (I completely agree with Starbolt that Kline should have won the award).
I think it is a very good idea that there is some kind of penalty for pitchers who make so many appearances, whether it is though increased risk of injury or simply increased fatigue after multiple appearances. Even the fatigue factor would make the game a little more realistic when using starters in the bullpen.





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posted on 7-31-2013 at 05:26 AM Edit Post
Quote:
Originally posted by Admin
I think 6 is more than sufficient for this setting, looking at the database very few people have it set higher and those that do are likely doing so to achieive the results bundy is. I've coded this on the game side on beta, anything over 6 will be treated as 6 in the sim. We will move this change over during the Dynasty offseason.

Thanks!

Well it looks like this loophole will be closed shortly. Thanks admins!!





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posted on 7-31-2013 at 06:26 AM Edit Post
Thanks admin! This offseason change will definitely be a step in the right direction:)





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posted on 7-31-2013 at 12:03 PM Edit Post
funny how other people did this same thing long before me, but now that AYE did it and someone raised a stink, it's getting fixed.

gee, who would have thought something like that would ever happen.

:rolleyes:

simd caused this themselves when they added the code to pull pitchers when they are tired after X number at bats.

get rid of that and you get rid of the problem.





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posted on 7-31-2013 at 12:35 PM Edit Post
Your poor me victim status is tired Bundy. You claim you were vehemently against the strategy then you adopted it to game the system. That makes you a hypocrite. I don't get it. You have over 15,000 posts and you seem miserable. Maybe bee keeping might be a healthier use of your time? Civil War reenactments? Something.
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posted on 7-31-2013 at 03:54 PM Edit Post
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Originally posted by imalbundy2
funny how other people did this same thing long before me, but now that AYE did it and someone raised a stink, it's getting fixed

would it help you to think that you were so much better at it than everyone else had been that you highlighted the issue more effectively?





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posted on 7-31-2013 at 05:24 PM Edit Post
Let's not start getting into personal attacks. I asked for this discussion, and I wanted both sides of it.

Thank you everyone for your input!

Chris





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posted on 7-31-2013 at 06:54 PM Edit Post
thank you Chris looking forward to the changes





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posted on 8-1-2013 at 12:47 AM Edit Post
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Originally posted by imalbundy2
funny how other people did this same thing long before me, but now that AYE did it and someone raised a stink, it's getting fixed.

gee, who would have thought something like that would ever happen.

:rolleyes:

simd caused this themselves when they added the code to pull pitchers when they are tired after X number at bats.

get rid of that and you get rid of the problem.

I'm pretty new to this. I never heard of this loophole before I read the original post that started this lengthy discussion. It's nothing personal, I just disagree with the method and am glad that the admins are taking care of it.





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posted on 8-1-2013 at 01:58 AM Edit Post
I apologize for jumping into this thread that looks like it's already been settled, but with all due respect I think the wrong loophole is being fixed.

Going back to Sisko - since his 2004 season is still going, I'll use 2003 as the example - we see a RP that appeared in 120 games, threw 278 innings, and won 49 games, while pitching to a 2.65 ERA.

It's the 120 games and 278 innings that are unrealistic and silly. The 49 wins is beside the point...though I do understand the frustration over statistical issues and records, for those who care about that aspect of the game.

But that kind of excellence in the face of that kind of abuse...how does his arm not fall off, or more realistically, how does he not become completely ineffective every 3rd day in a a row he pitches, or for the whole second half of the season?

With the limit implemented next offseason, sure, he won't get 49 wins anymore...but he can still throw 278 innings in 120 games just the same. He'll just be the first one in from the pen three out of every four games, taking the mound in the 7th inning, rather than the 4th or whenever.

It's for this reason that I think endurance, injury rates, and/or effectiveness for abused arms should have been the fix...not when the starter can be pulled.

I understand Tyson and Chris have only finite time to spend on fixes, and can see why the decided-on limit was chosen instead if it is much simpler...but all things equal, to me the endurance was the root of the problem.

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posted on 8-1-2013 at 03:26 AM Edit Post
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Originally posted by bdavids28
I apologize for jumping into this thread that looks like it's already been settled, but with all due respect I think the wrong loophole is being fixed.

Going back to Sisko - since his 2004 season is still going, I'll use 2003 as the example - we see a RP that appeared in 120 games, threw 278 innings, and won 49 games, while pitching to a 2.65 ERA.

It's the 120 games and 278 innings that are unrealistic and silly. The 49 wins is beside the point...though I do understand the frustration over statistical issues and records, for those who care about that aspect of the game.

But that kind of excellence in the face of that kind of abuse...how does his arm not fall off, or more realistically, how does he not become completely ineffective every 3rd day in a a row he pitches, or for the whole second half of the season?

With the limit implemented next offseason, sure, he won't get 49 wins anymore...but he can still throw 278 innings in 120 games just the same. He'll just be the first one in from the pen three out of every four games, taking the mound in the 7th inning, rather than the 4th or whenever.

It's for this reason that I think endurance, injury rates, and/or effectiveness for abused arms should have been the fix...not when the starter can be pulled.

I understand Tyson and Chris have only finite time to spend on fixes, and can see why the decided-on limit was chosen instead if it is much simpler...but all things equal, to me the endurance was the root of the problem.

This is true. However, the biggest problem (to me at least) was the amount of wins. Innings and appearances are important, but to a true baseball fan, wins are almost sacred. Now, nothing against Sisko. He had a great career as a starter. He won 3 Cy Youngs, led the league in IPs twice, ERA once and CGs, SHOs once. However, while he may be a Hall of Famer, he would have no shot at 300 wins. Now after 49 victories last year and 22 so far this season, he has 279 career wins. He has a good chance to hit 300 this year. If not this year he will reach it the season after. This does not bother me, as I am not in the same league as him but I understand the anger by owners that do have legit 300 game winners for their franchises.





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posted on 8-1-2013 at 07:18 AM Edit Post
Thanks for the fix, Chris!

I agree that the excessive appearances and innings thrown in relief will probably need to be addressed at some point, but I also think that it will be tempered at least a bit by reducing the opportunities to replace your starting pitcher after he's only pitched one or two innings. It'll be interesting to see how this unfolds and what will need to be done in the future.

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posted on 8-1-2013 at 01:04 PM Edit Post
Regarding the suggestions for the DH rule having little support, I don't think that those who "game" the system care about implementing a change that benefits everyone. The whole point of "gaming" the system is to take advantage of the code and the rules in such a way that it gives you some sort of benefit. If everyone gets to use the DH, that does not benefit teams in the same way that the loophole does.

(I, of course am against the DH rule in Major League Baseball, so I would not support implementing it in SD. However, I don't want to get Deke, Roosters and Tim all riled up, so I'll leave that issues alone...at least in this thread.)

I assume that when this change goes live in Dynasty Leagues, Private/Speed Leagues will have the option of implementing this. One of my leagues applauds clever and creative ways of doing things outside the norm, so a forced change might not go over so well, there.





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posted on 8-1-2013 at 04:34 PM Edit Post
The way it's being implemented now (in the game core rather than the interface), it will be the same across all leagues, Dynasty and private, at least at the beginning. If there is demand for an adjustable solution we will look at that.

Chris





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posted on 8-19-2013 at 06:34 PM Edit Post
The league has played 107 games and Sisko has appeared in 85 games with a record of 40-2 with 1 save (FINALLY) as Oakland's closer. He is on pace for 60 games...

http://www.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?player=nobody&mode=stats&id=9022203





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posted on 8-19-2013 at 08:31 PM Edit Post
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would it help you to think that you were so much better at it than everyone else had been that you highlighted the issue more effectively?


well, yes dirt, i guess it would since i was the first person who tried to put an END to this pitching system and was pretty much ignored and/or told there was nothing wrong with it.

but that's typical. nobody wants to pay attention to my ideas.

since then i have used it off and on in each and every one of my speed leagues and not one single person has complained about it.

this great debate was all started by one person in ONE dynasty league where i didn't even plan on staying long term and certainly wouldn't entertain that notion now.

and suddenly this one person has people including the admins agreeing to change when nobody cared about this when i tried it. how would that make one feel?

bundy against the world? i guess it will always be that way. but at least i accomplished my original goal of eliminating the pitching system.

:P

all of that said, sometimes that system is the only way your team can be successful when you don't have a deep pitching staff. and it can also be used to increase IC's for your young pitchers while rebuilding.

whatever change they make, you can be certain that i WILL find some way to use it to my advantage.

:D





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posted on 8-19-2013 at 08:59 PM Edit Post
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Originally posted by imalbundy2
well, yes dirt, i guess it would since i was the first person who tried to put an END to this pitching system and was pretty much ignored and/or told there was nothing wrong with it.


this great debate was all started by one person in ONE dynasty league where i didn't even plan on staying long term and certainly wouldn't entertain that notion now.

and suddenly this one person has people including the admins agreeing to change when nobody cared about this when i tried it. how would that make one feel?


Actually Admin has been against this policy from the beginning, as expressed in this thread from 2012, and in fact attempted to address the matter almost eight months ago with this release of changes.

Please see someone to help you with your persecution issues.

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