Seeking Your Thoughts and Discussion

[Bugz]

I fear this is going off the rails. If people want to have a discussion - in another thread or u2u about cases that aren't like those I clearly delineated above we can - but I made this post to get the sentiment of others in the league. You're right, kaliayev: we each have opinions, but so do 14 others and for the sake of the league, we need them to chime in not to derail things further.

[kaliayev]

Yes indeed 14 other owners have a right to state their opinions.

Mine:

How many owners remember a time of hidden draft pools and no mechanism to physically transfer draft picks to other owners? I do. You set your prefs (fewer prefs to choose from than today) and took your chances. The best player in the draft could go in the 2nd round. Draft picks where traded with a hand shake and you hoped that the guy doing the drafting for you had set his prefs decently enough that you would end up with a player that was usable. The very second that those two events changed tanking was born. It is an unfortunate reality we must deal with given the limited scope of this simulation. Tanking by definition is surrendering wins today in order to improve our position in the future. With a very small exception we all do it. Justify away, but the truth is the truth, and as simple as that... but it's not. Tanking can be subtle and it can be obvious. It can be ethical it can be unethical. Lines we draw in the sand for ourselves.

I am using this as an example to how blurry the lines can be. Bugz has stated that a 28YO A-/C+ pitcher in unequivocally better than a 27YO B+/C+ pitcher. That I have crossed the line. Is his opinion correct right now. Perhaps. But from my knowledge and experience the simulations mechanism for improvements is based on age and is also leans to improving the the quality that is already better. Therefore my choice is more likely to improve overall and to improve in control. For me I like control over velocity. It's a personal preference. Am I going to end up with an ace. Doubtful in either scenario.

If we want to start voting on this and how other owners make there decisions I can state here I am against. On the other hand if the majority wants a minimum win rule I can agree with that.

[Bugz]

^ And also that an OS 28 C/B/B is better than an OS 27 C/C+/B (AND that neither will be a full staff member on a competing team and so the best player must play, as you are likely truly building neither - which is also part of the contention - so if framing what I am contending, at least frame it as I have stated it)

[kaliayev]

I've explained myself, you disagree. Fine. Please explain your 22YO no.1 starter.

[Bugz]

Fine, you want to play that game? 1) That starter will procure more improves as OS 22 in the show than with 10 or so CP in the minors which is the most he could get there. OS 22 P convert more than people think and I have a CP crunch. He also has ROY votes and a sub 3.5 era. Why do you care if he'd convert maybe one more IC in the minors? Unless I am playing someone with no future to whom better options are freely available, that is not unfair play. Are you actually making the charge that his play constitutes tanking? It seems rather defensively responsive to me (and not truly about the case at hand).

2) if that's the case, and as you asked in u2u (or above, I forget and can't easily check on phone) why he is my number 1 starter, that begs a new question: why is your #4 starter not your #2 to get more reps since they have identical stamina, velocity and control and he is 2 years younger? If you TRULY believe in the development of B+/C+ pitchers, it seems you'd change these two while you're on the topic of rotation spot? Ironic that your pointing out the above alerted me to this too, which I hadn't even considered, and care far less about, but that back and forth can keep going see? Let's stop that and let others get back to my thread. I am directly offering fair suggestions and also asking if my concerns are off base. You clearly think they are, so let's leave space for others to respond directly to that please and see who the league thinks is correct.

3) Two of the three times I u2ud the Commish, I didn't mention who it was about, but it was you. I wish I'd kept track of your players and the wire at the time, but there have been MANY bad examples, and I have discussed them in the past about you specifically with another owner who agreed with me. Maybe he'd publicly note that here. Anyway, it seems that your continual defensive response might keep others from following my clear questions and this sort of useless back-and-forth response is EXACTLY what I attempted to avoid by trying 3 different approaches to this issue over the past few years with a small number of owners, including a very fair u2u, and about which I am asking for the input of the league on the best approach in the future.

So 4)PLEASE stop derailing this thread... I am asking if the league thinks I am off base on these specific cases. Let's hear from them, and I'd also like to hear about how THEY think we should respond if we assume tanking. What should I or others do in the future?

You asked me not to MIO you, and I respected that, now please stop your games on this thread and let's hear from others.

[kaliayev]

You publicly and privately attack me then demand I shut up. I ask anyone here to look at the historical record since I have been in this league. My record good and bad vs. Bugz. Hell I'll even own the first seasons I took over as mentor and could have had the team taken as Seattle did when I was mentoring there previously.

[Bugz]

Anyone else?

1) Am I off base?
2) If so, or even if not, what do we as a league think is the right way to respond to such things? 2 above said through the commish. That's currently the leading option. Do others agree with that?

[Frankenstrat]

I don't necessarily think either of you are off base, but yes, my opinion that is if it is not a league wide concern (like something obvious that mutiple owners can easily see happening), then I think going to the Commish privately is the way to go.

But what I see as the real difficulty in all this is: Can you PROVE someone is tanking? Just because someone doesn't share your opinion (as experienced as it may be), I can't justify that as tanking. If so, then something should be done about me as well. When your team gets older and you clearly don't think you can contend (again, also the owner's right and opinion) then you start to get as much value as you can in order to start a rebuild. If you have players that other teams feel are useful, then you get what you can. The same thing happens every July 31st in the MLB. Maybe not to fire sale level, but sometimes. I just think it's too slippery a slope to make a justification. Maybe that diminishes the spirit of competition a little, but if it's good enough for the MLB, it's okay by me. I mean, if I've been doing it wrong these 1000 seasons I've been in the MFL, sorry, but no one has ever come to me and expressed concern, so I just figured selling off and tearing down is what you did.

To argue the finer points of waiver wire vs. rostered players that are all basically gonna stink, seems to be fruitless to me. Maybe you guys understand the analytics of it a little better than I do, though. However, I respect both opinions and find it very difficult to find fault with either one, because an owner is allowed to have their personal ideas about how to build their team. In closing, with all due respect to Bugz, I can't really see what the other owner is doing wrong, at least to the point that it's egregious.

I changed my plans this year; I was going to make a run and then re-evaluated and decided to try another path. It might work, it might not, but that's half the fun. It may look like I'm tanking, because I now have two awful pitchers when I used to have 5 okay ones, but the way I saw it, based on experience and development that it wasn't gonna happen. But that's my viewpoint. Others in the league may see it differently.

I guess what I'm saying with this novel, is, I want anyone here that wants to be here to stay. Bugz has been here way longer than me, DET, CHI too (forgive if I missed someone.) But unless we can come up with a blatantly obvious definition and group decision what to do about it, I think it's going to be too hard to prove.

[Bugz]

Thanks frankenstrat, for chiming in. I have never, btw, felt that your policies were tanking in the anti-competitive manner I am concerned about.

[blumer5]

This conversation is why I’m leaving the league. Obviously not this one in particular but the idea that you should have ANY say whatsoever on another persons team is ridiculous. If they paid their money, and follow the rules of the league, which you have no anti tanking rules, then you shouldn’t call out anyone privately or publicly. Don’t want tanking, get rules preventing it.

As leagues die in this sim, you will find it harder and harder to get owners to come and stay with the micro managing that is present. And when I get u2us from players asking me how leagues are that I’m in, I definitely let them know, as I would want to know when choosing.

This is NOT a statement to place my team for sale yet, got two left to retire before I’m gone.