600+ AS Votes in 1 Season

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Which player would you vote for NL MVP in 2036?

Norm Hartley
1
50%
Ed Moore
1
50%
Rick Reynolds
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 2

spicoli306
Posts: 428
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:28 pm

600+ AS Votes in 1 Season

Post by spicoli306 »

I'm curious because of Hartley's historic season combined with the fact that Milwaukee looks to be a sub-.500 team in 2036. Hartley is currently at 564 votes with 9 games to go. Should Milwaukee's lack of wins disqualify Hartley from winning?

Very few hitters accomplish an individual season in which they accrue 600+ All-Star Votes. Les Robinson in 2029 (585) was the last player in the NL to come within 25 votes. Eric Keller in 2027 (609) was the last player to reach 600 votes. Both players amazingly failed to win the MVP during those seasons.

On a similar note, Mario De La Rosa is also having an astounding 2036 season on a disappointing Kansas City team. It's doubtful he gets from where he currently is with 9 games to play (517) to 600, but it isn't impossible. Even with a remarkable finish, he is also unlikely to be in the consideration for AL MVP.

**I was in a rush to post and I forgot to finish my 1st paragraph. I finished the question I was trying to make.
Last edited by spicoli306 on Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
historymann49
Posts: 1236
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2018 1:55 am
Location: New Jersey

Re: 600+ AS Votes in 1 Season

Post by historymann49 »

I voted for Ed Moore, and not because he's my guy.

Hartley is having an excellent season but his team will finish the season around .500, so how valuable is he? MVP is NOT Player of the Year. Mike Trout won the MVP in 2016. He may have been the best player in the league, but MVP? His team finished 74-88.

Reynolds is having a very good year and his team has the best record in the league. Good argument for him except for one thing. He's not having the best season on his own team. George Lukon?

Moore led a team that won 84 games last year and finished 20 games out of the playoffs to a 2nd place finish this year. To me, that's what an MVP is.
spicoli306
Posts: 428
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:28 pm

Re: 600+ AS Votes in 1 Season

Post by spicoli306 »

historymann49 wrote: Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:38 am I voted for Ed Moore, and not because he's my guy.

Hartley is having an excellent season but his team will finish the season around .500, so how valuable is he? MVP is NOT Player of the Year. Mike Trout won the MVP in 2016. He may have been the best player in the league, but MVP? His team finished 74-88.

Reynolds is having a very good year and his team has the best record in the league. Good argument for him except for one thing. He's not having the best season on his own team. George Lukon?

Moore led a team that won 84 games last year and finished 20 games out of the playoffs to a 2nd place finish this year. To me, that's what an MVP is.
As for Moore, I didn't mean to denigrate his excellence. Personally, I think he will end up winning once the season is over. I'm going to wait to see what Hartley finishes at before I decide between he and Moore. Right now, Hartley's .320 BA versus the league leading .346 BA is the only 1 of the 3 Leaguewide Triple Crown stats in which he is behind. That is pretty darn incredible.

My personal feelings on why Hartley deserves the MVP: I've always been someone to consider the added difficulty of carrying an offense without much support. Moore's season isn't near as nice looking if he doesn't have Joel Rose, Denny Hertwreck, Ezra Lazerus, Pinky Fingers, and Bobby Frias in the lineup too. The same can be said for Reynolds being lifted by Lukon and also IMO Pete Walters & Jim Swift. Also, I agree that Reynolds is getting lucky this season since 1) he's 34, 2) has the RF bonus, and 3) neither Lukon nor Walters has overachieved quite enough to distinguish themselves over Reynolds. There is a reason they are my 3 & 4 hitters while Reynolds is typically in the 6 or 7 spot against RHP.

As for Trout, I agree with the sportswriters that he shouldn't have beat out Donaldson in 2015 due in part to Toronto making the playoffs. As for his winning in 2016 over Betts, I agree that 74 wins versus 93 wins looked bad. However, I do think it is worth comparing the difference between the supporting cast of Big Papi, Pedroia, JBJ, and to a lesser extent Bogaerts & Hanley to a near-washed up Pujols, an Andrelton Simmons that was all-D/no-O, and Kole Calhoun. That Angels offense scored 717 runs that season. I think a case could be made that with only an average CFer, the Angels might have been the worst offense in the league. Betts did have a great season though. It was a very tough call to make, but I was glad the writers didn't eliminate Trout out of a bias against a truly-"Valuable" player who happened to play for a roster that had no chance in hell of getting to 93 wins in 2016. I agree with the MVP being different than having the best statistics, but the value aspect can be interpreted in many different ways. I disagree with excluding players specifically because of their inferior teams.
historymann49
Posts: 1236
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2018 1:55 am
Location: New Jersey

Re: 600+ AS Votes in 1 Season

Post by historymann49 »

You make some very valid points. Moore certainly benefits from the guys around him. To be perfectly honest, if I had to pick the MVP of my team, it might not be Moore. Ezra Lazarus has been amazing, driving in 90 runs from the leadoff spot, hitting around .340, and setting the table for Moore and the others. He deserves a lot of consideration.

As far as Trout and similar cases, if you're going to give the MVP to the best player, even though he plays for a lousy team, how far do you take it? In 1958 and 1959, Ernie Banks won the MVP on a last place team!

Correction: the Cubbies finished 5th those years, but they were dreadful.
spicoli306
Posts: 428
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:28 pm

Re: 600+ AS Votes in 1 Season

Post by spicoli306 »

historymann49 wrote: Thu Sep 06, 2018 5:06 pm You make some very valid points. Moore certainly benefits from the guys around him. To be perfectly honest, if I had to pick the MVP of my team, it might not be Moore. Ezra Lazarus has been amazing, driving in 90 runs from the leadoff spot, hitting around .340, and setting the table for Moore and the others. He deserves a lot of consideration.
It's tough to not look good when a hitter finishes with a .338 batting average. Those out of nowhere seasons like Lazarus had are especially fun to catch. The guy that might have been the glue to the lineup, Denny Hertwreck, was an extremely worthy candidate too. He got the SS position boost, but the fact that he was above-average defensively doesn't matter much (if any) to the voting formula. Especially unfair since Hartley is a butcher at Shortstop, yet he gets the same position bump.
historymann49 wrote: Thu Sep 06, 2018 5:06 pm As far as Trout and similar cases, if you're going to give the MVP to the best player, even though he plays for a lousy team, how far do you take it? In 1958 and 1959, Ernie Banks won the MVP on a last place team!

Correction: the Cubbies finished 5th those years, but they were dreadful.
You don't even have to go back that far. I'm a big supporter of Andre Dawson's 1987 MVP despite the Cubs finishing in last place in the NL East. That said, the discussion should have included like 5 or 6 other guys and I am considering Dawson's validity based on the past mistake of overvaluing home runs and RBI. Ozzie Smith & Jack Clark were both strong candidates for STL. Tony Gwynn had a phenomenal season. Eric Davis almost achieved not only the 1st 40-40 season, but also the lone 40-50 season in MLB history (if you're willing to call that a thing). Will Clark, Tim Raines, and Dale Murphy were all great too.

It's tough to say about Banks in '58 & '59. Mays was great in '58. He might have deserved to win, but the Giants didn't win the NL that year (Milwaukee did). The next season, both Eddie Mathews and Hank Aaron were worthy. Their downfall was that Milwaukee didn't win the NL that year and their combined strength make the fact that Banks didn't have another superstar teammate even more seductive.
spicoli306
Posts: 428
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:28 pm

Re: 600+ AS Votes in 1 Season

Post by spicoli306 »

Amazing how close the final tally ended up being. I'm going to add the totals for posterity:

Rank Name Team Votes
1 Rick Reynolds New York Gotham Knights 1,426
2 Norm Hartley Milwaukee Hammers 1,402
3 George Lukon New York Gotham Knights 1,394
4 Ed Moore Brooklyn Giants 1,354
5 Denny Hertwreck Brooklyn Giants 1,341

There is no way Reynolds doesn't win without the difference in Team Records. Reynold's 105-57 versus Hartley's 78-84 is surely where those 24 extra points came from. If he had pulled it off, I'm fairly certain that Hartley would have been the only MVP from a 7th place team in league history.
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