An anti-tanking idea

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Kingturtle
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Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 1:20 pm

An anti-tanking idea

Post by Kingturtle »

Just as ABE prevents us from dumping A-level players, ABE should also prevent us from promoting C-level players to the Major leagues.
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Beanballs
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Re: An anti-tanking idea

Post by Beanballs »

System 3/4 minors speed league have a site wide rule against tanking (it still happens some), but I think you would be a good candidate to move into private/speed leagues that have a more competitive rules package.

http://simdynasty.com/rules/Site_Rules. ... ed_Leagues

I could see this being a rule for all leagues for C or lower players (maybe catchers being the exception), this might be worth messaging Chris about (especially if you had a blatant occurrence in one of your leagues).

That is one reason I do not play in dynasty leagues, here is too much of that boom/bust cycle, we need to get you in the Cool Papa Bell...
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Hamilton2
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Re: An anti-tanking idea

Post by Hamilton2 »

Tanking is much more about bad manager prefs than bad players. If someone is promoting C level talent in an effort to lose, they will succeed at losing, but they are not smart and will lose long term also.
Kingturtle
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Re: An anti-tanking idea

Post by Kingturtle »

I know of a longtime, successful owner who currently had two catchers in the Majors who have overall ratings of C. And there are five catchers available B- or better.
Michael1
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Re: An anti-tanking idea

Post by Michael1 »

In Variable development leagues if a player is 0/40 or more improves the best course is bring it up and try for ML improves. Not all C level call ups are tank moves sometimes it is a development move
Johngarm70u
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Re: An anti-tanking idea

Post by Johngarm70u »

I am a little late to the party but the tanking I see has way more to do with, as Hamilton said, manager preferences. You can be called out for bad roster construction. It is a little harder to detect bad manager settings. You can though. Under team hitting stats the most obvious setting is base stealing. You can set your settings to run more and be thrown out more. You will see some teams attempting to steal 500+ bases a season and being thrown out as much as they steal. Often more. Pitcher settings can be made to have your best pitchers removed quicker to bring in bad relief pitchers or vice versa. That can be seen if you know where to look in the stats. Basically if a team loses 120 games or more, 95% of the time they are a bad team with tanking preferences.
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Admin
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Re: An anti-tanking idea

Post by Admin »

The problem with a site-wide tanking rule is that there is no "bright line" way to define it. It would have to come down to league votes for "Is this guy tanking?" or constant requests to Admin to adjudicate tanking issues. we would need a set of rules that will catch tankers without sweeping up genuinely bad teams desperately trying to improve.

As far as bad manager settings, it is possible to eliminate settings used for tanking via code; for example we don't let you set C-speed runners to steal more aggressively than A-speed runners. But again, it has to be done in a way that doesn't punish someone trying a legitimate strategy.

I am happy to listen to all suggestions on this subject.

Chris
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samtinky
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Re: An anti-tanking idea

Post by samtinky »

I know that there are many owners who hate tanking and some believe that it somehow hurts the game, but I don't see how it hurts the competitive balance of the game. In fact, a statistical argument could be made that it actually helps the competitive balance of the game. The reason I say this is because there are 2 leagues that I know of that have completely eliminated tanking by using a wheel draft. And both of these leagues show that a small percentage of owners are in the playoffs at a much higher percentage than some owners.

In the FRL an owner has been in the playoffs 93 out of 169 seasons. Another was in the playoffs 56 out of 89 seasons.
In the BRL one franchise has been in the playoffs 56 out of 84 seasons and another has been in the playoffs 50 out of 84 seasons. On the other end, 4 franchises have made the playoffs less than 10 times out of 84 seasons at 9, 5, 4, and 2.

It doesn't matter what the league rules are about tanking, some owners are going to do better than others. The fact is that if you want to play in a league that has no tanking you need to play in a wheel draft league. But this in no way makes competition balanced. In my experience in the wheel draft leagues (I played 1 or 2 terms in the FRL and quite a bit in the BRL), the competitive balance is skewed worse than in leagues that have full on tanking.

In a wheel draft league, a new owner or an owner that isn't as strong overall as some other owners has a much harder time building a playoff team because they can't tank and lock in a top draft pick 10 straight years. A highly skilled owner can take a terrible team in a wheel draft league and eventually build it up to a strong team and then stay on top or near the top for a long time, while a newer owner without the same skill set is stuck at the bottom forever.

My opinion is that eliminating tanking does more to hurt the game overall than help it. If an owner has no hope to compete they usually don't stay in a league for long.

It seems like tanking is an emotional issue more than anything else. There's nothing wrong with this. I've never cared about tanking because as long as everyone has to play by the same rules you just have to figure out how to compete using those rules.

The other thing is that just because some owners tank doesn't mean you have to if you think it's wrong. Look at Hamilton's owner card to see how an owner can compete at the highest levels without tanking. He simply doesn't tank, and he still has a strong record over many different leagues and seasons.
NDPAF
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Re: An anti-tanking idea

Post by NDPAF »

Rather than trying to legislate tanking out of the game, maybe the best course of action to try to de-incentivize it (and/or incentivize winning more - or at least trying to win). What is an acceptable "rebuild"? What constitutes tanking? What is just a bad owner? Those questions are too hard to answer.

Just spitballing some ideas:
- Lottery draft (like samtinky said a wheel draft would really hurt newer owners or owners who just aren't as good as others yet. a lottery draft would still give better picks to worse teams, but remove some of the incentive for completely tanking, since you could still get the top pick or a really high pick without the worst record)
- Maybe some kind of CP penalty for having a certain number of 100-loss seasons in a row. (5 100-loss seasons in a row and you lose 10 CPs)
- Some kind of CP bonus for finishing above .500 (maybe like 2 extra CPs so you could have 3 guys with 15CP instead of 15,14,13)

These aren't great ideas...but I think trying to remove some of the appeal of tanking would help. I'm just not sure of the best way.
edmortimer
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Re: An anti-tanking idea

Post by edmortimer »

My take is that min-max owners are always going to tank no matter what rules are in place. I also think tanking is a very poor strategy overall. But the really big thing that sticks in my craw is that there is already enough bad will amongst owners due to bogus trade complaints, and bogus tanking complaints won't make matters any better.

I favor something simple and already in use - bring the Winning Percentage Modifier to Dynasty Leagues, and increase the bonus and penalty if necessary..
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