Hall of Fame (Discussion Thread)

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acnunnally
Posts: 229
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2017 5:06 pm

Hall of Fame (Discussion Thread)

Post by acnunnally »

Hi everyone,

Time for another Hall of Fame election. In our continuing effort to become current, we will be balloting for the 2010-2014 cohort, which will be followed by 2014-2019, 2020-2029, 2030-2034, 2035-39 until we are caught up and can do annual balloting with eligible players (10 seasons in the majors) who have retired each season.

The balloting rules are as follows:
  • One owner, one ballot
  • 75% of votes required for induction, minimum of four votes (i.e., there must be at least 5 ballots)
  • Any player receiving at least 12.5% of the vote remains on the next ballot, with a maximum of 5 ballots
  • No limit to number of votes for induction you wish to cast
This string will be dedicated to the presentation and discussion of candidates. There will be a separate voting thread set up immediately after this. Please do NOT cast official votes in this thread and, rather, make any comments you may have here. It's entirely appropriate to hold off on voting until you have enjoyed the benefit of discussion with the group.

In terms of determining who gets on the ballot, this is based on my own research, previously of all-time rankings and All-Star archives, now (having been through the all-time rankings once) just All-Star archives. If you believe I have missed a deserving candidate, please let me know!

The candidates for induction in the 2010 to 2014 retiree period plus carryovers are:

Position Players

Joe Mangan, SS, CIN/CHA (retired 1995)
http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=5129689
2 x MVP, 8 x AS, 3 x WSC, BA LL, 2 x LL in OPS, .830/.355/.475/.288

Cory Stovey, 1B, TEX/NYA (retired 2007)
http://www.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=7620593
9 x AS, 3 x WSC, 2 x HR LL, 443 HR, 1522 RBI, .798/.325/.474/.269

Ed Karger, SS, BRO (retired 2008)
http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=8698518
2 x MVP, 7 x AS, 3 x GG, 2 x WSC, 2 x H LL, 2 x R LL, 2586 H, 477 SB, .782/.361/.421/.291

Cesar Manon, RF, PHI/NYA (retired 2008)
http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=7385312
MVP, 5 x AS, 3 x WSC, 356 HR, 2772 H, 438 2B, 345 SB, .805/.349/.456/.282

Tris Speaker, CF, BOS (retired 2008)
http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=7385296
MVP, 5 x AS, 3 x WSC, BA LL, 2883 H, 500 2B, 1506 R, 364 SB, .790/.366/.424/.289

Bill Brink, C, CHA/CIN (retired 2009)
http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=8174679
10 x AS, 3 x GG, 2 x WSC, BA LL, 339 HR, 1234 RBI, .843/.355/.488/.290

Mark Charleston, 1B, PIT/BOS/BRO (retired 2009)
http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=8174666
MVP, ROY, 8 x AS, 2 x WSC, BA LL, 2 x OBP LL, OPS LL, SLG LL, 2426 H, 1504 R, 387 SB, .878/.389/.489/.311

Wally Delsing, CF, BRO (retired 2009)
http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=7620604
MVP, ROY, 7 x AS, 2 x WSC, 347 HR, 1592 RBI, 1658 R, 2843 H, .795/.350/.445/.280

Miah Dashner, 2B, ATL (retired 2010)
http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=8698566
MVP, ROY, 10 x AS, 3 x WSC, 2587 H, .810/.359/.451/.288

Rube Wilson, 1B, CIN/WAS/NYA (retired 2010)
http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=8483618
ROY, 4 x AS, 9 x GG, +182 +/-, 340 HR, .812/.336/.476/.278

John Roseberry, C, KC/MIN (retired 2012)
http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=9021601
13 x AS, 2360 H, 251 HR, 1280 RBI, .794/.357/.437/.280

Valentino Bianchi, 3B, MIN/HOU/NYA (retired 2013)
http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=9322949
10 x AS, 3 x GG, 2726 H, 493 HR, 1708 RBI, .775/.319/.457/.263

Colman Hawkins, RF, KC/STL (retired 2013)
http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=9680818
2 x MVP, 8 x AS, 3 x GG, 385 HR, 1520 RBI, .830/.346/.484/.286

Lowe Morgan, RF, CIN/KC/HOU/BOS (retired 2013)
http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=9322936
5 x AS, 3 x GG, 370 HR, .885/.367/.518/.303

Tommy Smith, C, HOU (retired 2013)
http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=9170481
7 x AS, 402 HR, 1335 RBI, .771/.313/.458/.259

Eddie Capra, C, BRO (retired 2014)
http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=9555141
MVP, 10 x AS, 4 x WSC, 2648 H, 1398 R, 292 HR, 1491 RBI, .800/.359/.441/.284

Don Chance, 2B, BRO (retired 2014)
http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=9439786
4 x MVP, 12 x AS, 4 x WSC, 2628 H, 1500 R, 289 HR, 1541 RBI, 414 SB, .823/.360/.464/.294


Pitchers

Hideki Suzuki, SP, PIT (retired 1983)
http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=3542516
CYA, 4 x AS, 3 x WSC, 2 x WHIP LL, 245-143, 3.68 ERA, 1.23 WHIP, 3 x 20W

John Steinbeck, SP, BAL/STL/BOS (retired 1989)
http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=4031147
7 x AS, 2 x K LL, 233-148, 3.63 ERA, 1.29 WHIP

Bob Bettendorf, SP, BRO (retired 1992)
http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=4537286
2 x CYA, 5 x AS, 6 x WSC, 212-102, 3.78 ERA, 1.26 WHIP

Jackie Bowie, SP, PHI/CHA (retired 1994)
http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=4922863
3 x CYA, 5 x AS, 3 x WSC, 2 x ERA LL, 2 x WHIP LL, 219-189, 3.75 ERA, 1.24 WHIP

Hank Harlow, SP, STL (retired 1996)
http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=5330879
6 x AS, 4 x K LL, 5 x CG LL, 215-143, 143 CG, 2790 K, 3.60 ERA, 1.30 WHIP

Leo Tricks, SP, PIT/MIN (retired 2005)
http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=7385281
6 x AS, 219-146, 2619 K, 3.51 ERA, 1.22 WHIP

Dutch Leonard, SP, BOS/KC (retired 2008)
http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=7620585
CYA, 5 x AS, 3 x WSC, ERA LL, WHIP LL, 223-147, 3.13 ERA, 1.17 WHIP

Brad Traxler, SP, NYA/TEX/OAK (retired 2010)
http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=8483616
2 x CYA, 7 x AS, 2 x ERA LL, 235-146, 3.29 ERA, 1.23 WHIP

Van Monaco, SP, BRO (retired 2011)
http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=9170400
2 x CYA, ROY, 7 x AS, 4 x WSC, 238-120 (.665 W%), 2918 K, 148 CG (11th All-Time), 3.60 ERA, 1.25 WHIP, 12 x 200 K, 4 x 20 W

Nick Altrock, SP, BOS/NYA (retired 2012)
http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=9170428
4 x AS, 2 x WSC, ERA LL, WHIP LL, 207-164, 2543 K, 3.26 ERA, 1.17 WHIP, 6 x 200 K, 4 x 20 W

Lew Pesky, SP, NYA (retired 2013)
http://www.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=9933162
CYA, ROY, 9 x AS, 3 x WSC, 238-114, 2753 K, 3.05 ERA (12th All-Time), 1.20 WHIP, 10 x 200 K, 5 x 20 W

Jesse Fischer, RP, NYA (retired 2013)
http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=9021648
CYA, ROY, 15 x AS, 7 x FMA, 4 x WSC, 5 x S LL, 658 S, 1034 K, 3.11 ERA, 1.23 WHIP, 14 x 30 S, 10 x 40 S, 4 x 50 S

Bill Birkbeck, SP, OAK/BRO (retired 2014)
http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=9170443
CYA, 8 x AS, 3 x WSC, 256-146, 3048 K, 128 CG, 3.19 ERA, 1.20 WHIP, 7 x 200 K, 4 x 20 W

Eddie Cicotte, SP, BOS/NYA (retired 2014)
http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=9322991
CYA, ROY, 4 x AS, 2 x WSC, 4 x K LL, 231-183, 3287 K, 3.38 ERA, 1.26 WHIP, 13 x 200 K, 3 x 20 W

Jack Armstrong, SP, WAS (retired 2014)
http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=9680824
4 x AS, 2 x WSC, 4 x K LL, 195-169, 3074 K, 3.61 ERA, 1.28 WHIP, 11 x 200 K, 3 x 20 W
Last edited by acnunnally on Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:11 am, edited 5 times in total.
acnunnally
Posts: 229
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2017 5:06 pm

Re: Hall of Fame (Discussion Thread)

Post by acnunnally »

To help guide deliberations, consider the following comparison data for Hall of Fame inductees. The decade cohorts are established by year of retirement for the inductees.

Position Players

1960-69* - 376 HR, 1422 RBI, .931/.388/.543/.316
1970-79 - 406 HR, 1622 RBI, .875/.369/.506/.301
1980-89 - 427 HR, 1606 RBI, .857/.361/.497/.295
1990-99 - 369 HR, 1540 RBI, .820/.355/.465/.287
2000-09 - 367 HR, 1567 RBI, .825/.355/.471/.288

Starting Pitchers

1960-69* - 277-138, 2666 K, 3.25 ERA, 1.21 WHIP
1970-79 - 336-170, 3545 K, 3.19 ERA, 1.20 WHIP
1980-89 - 259-151, 2648 K, 3.60 ERA, 1.23 WHIP
1990-99 - 250-151, 2615 K, 3.40 ERA, 1.21 WHIP
2000-09 - 253-138, 2852 K, 2.99 ERA, 1.13 WHIP

* - The 1960-69 YOR decade had players who were mid-career in 1950. Accordingly, counting stat averages are lower than they would be for this decade.

There is a clear downward trend in elite offensive performance (likely due, at least in large part, to adjustments to ABE's algorithm over the years). There does seem to be a stabilizing trend for offensive statistics beginning in the 1990s.

Interestingly, starting pitching statistics do not track a direct inverse of the offensive trends. Pitchers in the 1980-1999 cohort actually had poorer rate stats from than prior HOFers before a sudden enhancement in elite performance averages for HOF inductees in the 2000-2009 cohort. This may suggest the emergence of a smaller number of elite pitchers with a flatter "rest of the pack" in more recent times. That certainly "feels" like the case in today's game.

Note that there a large number of carry-over SP candidates from the decades with depressed pitching stats. Likewise, there are some carryover position players who hold up very well to their HOF peers. I encourage voters to look at those carryover candidates relative to the times in which they played.
Jonathan8
Posts: 570
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 5:40 am

Re: Hall of Fame (Discussion Thread)

Post by Jonathan8 »

Excellent presentation of information. Interesting, concise and pertinent. Thank you !
Michael1
Posts: 1874
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 7:21 am

Re: Hall of Fame (Discussion Thread)

Post by Michael1 »

Before I am asked I was on the Fence with Dutch Leonard, I met the real one from the Senators he lived in my hometown, But so many of the pitchers had over 240 wins I had to cutoff somewhere. I like big numbers, I won't lie, the Bigger the easier. Since All Star and MVP are a formula I discount them a little. Just so you all know where I am in the process. Nice job commish.
acnunnally
Posts: 229
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2017 5:06 pm

Re: Hall of Fame (Discussion Thread)

Post by acnunnally »

I hear what you're saying, but how do you vote Steinbeck over Leonard or even Cicotte even by your own standards. Leonard has 223 W (10 less than Steinbeck) with a 3.13/1.17, and Cicotte was 231 W (just 2 less than Steinbeck) with 3.38/1.26 AND 3287 K! Steinbeck, meanwhile, had 233 W with 3.63/1.29. Granted, Steinbeck pitched in an era with worse rate stats for inducted HOF pitchers, but these are pretty huge differences in rate stats--which say a lot more about your earned performance than wins do. And if you like "big numbers," I don't know how you don't love Cicotte.
Michael1
Posts: 1874
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 7:21 am

Re: Hall of Fame (Discussion Thread)

Post by Michael1 »

Let's just look at the elephant in the room, EVERYONE of these players meet HOF standards. There are no real clunkers, IF I changed my vote to all the Commish would be happy but then you are rubber stamping what he puts forth, there has to be somewhere where the bar sits, not every 200 winner or 400 HR player is great, some are just the product of team and stadium or bad pitching.
acnunnally
Posts: 229
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2017 5:06 pm

Re: Hall of Fame (Discussion Thread)

Post by acnunnally »

No, I think I'd be bummed if people voted for everyone. I try to put up everyone that's worth consideration, and if everyone were getting elected, that would be mean I was holding too high a standard for "nomination." This is all this way only because we're having to go backward in time. Once we catch up, anyone eligible (10 years service time) can be put up.

Definitely not trying to single out your voting Michael1. In fact, you're the only guy who's voted so far, so I appreciate that! I actually enjoy the debates (and I think others do). Frankly, I think there'd be much less point in doing this if we didn't get to enjoy the debates.

Your vote is your vote (as is everyone's). Do you still like Steinbeck over those guys?

Having nothing to do with Michael1's vote specifically, I will say that, in the spirit of making discussion more meaningful, I have no personal objection to anyone amending their ballot during debates before balloting closes, though it obviously shouldn't be a regular practice because it can make things hard to manage.
Jonathan8
Posts: 570
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 5:40 am

Re: Hall of Fame (Discussion Thread)

Post by Jonathan8 »

That same thought process is going on in my mind. At first glance all of the nominees seem worthy. Where to draw the line ?
acnunnally
Posts: 229
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2017 5:06 pm

Re: Hall of Fame (Discussion Thread)

Post by acnunnally »

Something I just thought about and wanted to note is that starting as of about 2006, there were no prior inductees into the Hall of Fame. I had started this exercise because I noticed there had been a very haphazard and uneven approach in the past to electing people, so I have been doing giant "Veterans Committee" work of sorts to present deserving historical candidates for nomination. Thus, keep in mind that the people you elect from about that year forward will represent the entirety of that era's inducted class.

When I and we consider "where to draw the line" and we think about historical context, keep in mind (1) who you are electing now will represent the entirety of players from that era who enter the Hall and (2) how many players have been elected from each era to represent that time of the game. Here are the current cohort sizes of inductees by decade:

Position Players

Pre-1970 - 18
1970-79 - 25
1980-89 - 24
1990-99 - 13
2000-09 - 10

Starting Pitchers

Pre-1970 - 10
1970-79 - 5
1980-89 - 10
1990-99 - 7
2000-09 - 5

This is definitely going to effect how I vote -- as in, I'm probably going to be voting for more people (if not all of them). It also makes me question whether I should have been more inclusive on the nomination list. Finally, it makes me realize that it is getting harder and harder to be a statistical standout in the modern era of SimDynasty.
acnunnally
Posts: 229
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2017 5:06 pm

Re: Hall of Fame (Discussion Thread)

Post by acnunnally »

I am officially lobbying for the candidacy of Jackie Bowie who sits on 4 of 6 ballots so far and needs to be on the rest of ballots that are likely to be cast to be enshrined. He's the case...

Jackie Bowie, SP, PHI/CHA (retired 1994)
http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=4922863
3 x CYA, 5 x AS, 2 x ERA LL, 2 x WHIP LL, 219-189, 3.75 ERA, 1.24 WHIP
  • He boasted a 7-year peak AVERAGING 20 W, 2.72 ERA, and 1.10 WHIP
  • During that span, he won 3 CYA's in 4 years
  • He had 4 consecutive (and 5 of 6) 20-W campaigns in that stretch
  • He led the league twice each in W, ERA, and WHIP in this dominant period
His line (219-189, 3.75 ERA, 1.24 WHIP) is not as impressive at first glance, but his rate stats were definitely hurt by his first 6 full seasons (ages 21-26, during which he was steadily improving), but not so much that his career numbers are not still great, especially considering the average ERA for the mere 7 inductees from that decade was 3.40. There's no question he was a dominating pitcher of his era--if not THE most dominant.
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