Discussion on the Wheel

Discussions for the Billy Williams League.

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Discussion on the Wheel

Post by BigRich » Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:05 am

The first cycle of our wheel draft started in 2013 and finished in 2028. The current cycle began in 2029 and will end in 2044 and to be fair to everyone I think any changes we might decide to do should be held off until the 2045 season. I do think though that it's not to early to start discussing the wheel and ideas on how to make it better. Especially since we can trade picks 3 years ahead and we need to know if the wheel would be changing down the road. Fredbird, a founding team owner; is leaving as he is not fond of the wheel (along with needing to be cutting back on the number of leagues he is in) and said it is too hard to rebuild a bad team. I think he is right that it does make it too hard to rebuild a bad team. The wheel draft's original idea was to eliminate out and out tanking to get the first pick. I would like propose an idea that I discussed with Jack. (a friend who used to own Oakland here in the BWL) I think a modified wheel draft would work better than our current system. I propose that the first 4 teams draft order be by the wheel and draft picks 5-16 by the teams order of finish. This would make rebuilding easier but still deter tanking. If you were the worst team in the league and the wheel draft order hit say like Boston's current cycle is now in the draft cycle, you would have the 16th, 10th and 7th pick in the next 3 years draft. Those 3 seasons would need to be deep drafts to have the bad club get a lot better. Lets assume the same hypothetical bad team finishes last 2 of the next 3 seasons and 2nd to last in one of them. With a modified wheel that team would get the 5th pick in 2 of the next 3 drafts and the 6th pick in one of them. (Assuming they were not scheduled to have one of the top 4 picks in the draft from the wheel) While the difference between having the 16, 10 & 7 picks and having the 5, 5, & 6 picks is not huge it would allow a losing team to rebuild quicker without giving them any of the top 4 picks of the draft. I would like to hear back on your thoughts on this. Especially Fredbird. Would this change be something you would like to see? Attached is how the modified draft would look like:
Proposed modified wheel.jpg
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Re: Discussion on the Wheel

Post by historymann49 » Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:15 pm

I enjoy this league (this is my 8th season) and I love my team. We went from champs to chumps very quickly and I've been SLOWLY trying to rebuild, mostly via trades. I have no intention of leaving, whatever happens. That said, I hate the wheel. In any form or variation. After winning the WS, the Flying Squirrels had five bad seasons, not because I was "tanking", but because I had an aging team that needed fresh blood. Due to late-round picks, I had to trade a few still-productive players for prospects and/or earlier picks. This season and next, I was fortunate enough to receive early picks which allowed me to make more favorable deals. I think the draft should be based solely on the standings. If anyone is obviously tanking, there must be some other way to deal with it. I'm not crying the blues (I have gotten some satisfaction from the rebuilding process), just putting my two cents in.

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Re: Discussion on the Wheel

Post by fredbirds » Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:54 am

For me, get rid of the wheel. Maybe do a lottery for the 2nd division teams or bottom 4, 5, or 6 teams. My team took forever to get back to the top with the wheel. I was on the way down, when we started it and didn't get the 1st pick until the 16th season and actually had traded for the 2nd pick as well. Tuned out to be a bad draft, I got a couple of starters but not all-stars and people agreed I picked the correct guys 1 and 2. Did win a WS with these two players, but had to trade away 3 1st round picks to get there and my next 1st round pick is guess what, 16th as I head back to the bottom of the league.

We would still have to do something about tanking, or trading all of the picks going forward then quitting the league and leaving the next guy to deal with the trash. There is one infamous owner around that has destroyed many a league with this strategy. I won't say his name other than it starts with a C and he cannot spell to save a lick.

I would stay if we change it to something better and would have to keep the wheel this season, as I traded the overall #1 and he should keep it.

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Re: Discussion on the Wheel

Post by Beanballs » Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:52 pm

Thank you guys for the discussion and the opinions, honestly it is great that the owners here in this league can have a discussion and be adults and civil.

I do have to say I am at the opposite end of the spectrum than what you guys say, I would retire if the wheel was removed ( I have been heading towards that anyway so do not let me stop the league from changing).

The wheel makes this league so much more competitive than other leagues that I have been into, heck this was one of the biggest boom/bust leagues that I have ever been in (Brooklyn's previous owner was the best at it), many of us used that strategy to much success. The wheel makes this league chess while the others are playing checkers.

Look at the last deal I made with NYA, a player for one position in a draft two years out (two picks), where else other than the wheel could we make that deal?

I have stayed in this league and the CPBL where we have a lottery and Win Percentage Modifier, but that league is still a boom/bust league for the most part, it just takes longer.

I would strongly consider Rich's proposal, that is to me seems like a better option than the lottery/WPM to prevent tanking, but don't let me hold the league back--John

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Re: Discussion on the Wheel

Post by greysonburke » Sat Oct 12, 2019 1:41 am

100% agree with everything beanballs just said. Well put.

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Re: Discussion on the Wheel

Post by 2ndCos » Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:06 am

I am in both leagues as well Cool Papa and here and both really make you work and think about what you are trading and getting if pick are involved. I have not found my grove here yet but love the challenge. If we were to change here It should be so it remains challenging but prevents tanking. I have considered leaving this league but have been on a youth movement and want to see the results. I ceretainly learned not to just trade my first without checking to see if it is a early first or not.

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Re: Discussion on the Wheel

Post by mrtwolff » Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:28 pm

I like the wheel as is but would also vote in the affirmative for the proposed changes to said wheel.

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Re: Discussion on the Wheel

Post by mhollidaze » Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:45 pm

I'm good with the Wheel as is but also like Rich's proposal, either one is good with me.

With the Wheel Draft the commish has to set up the Draft each season after the Off Season Run based on our grid for that season. In a regular Draft it is done automatically by Abe based on the outcome of the standings. Ties are broken by head to head or if they are teams from both leagues then Abe does a coin flip.

My question is if we do what Rich proposes how would it be set up. We could do the 1st 4 picks based on the standings and the last 12 based on the Grid but if we have a tie in the 1st 4 how or who would break this. Not sure but if this has been done in other leagues I'm sure they have figured it out already. Just would like to know how they do it.


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Re: Discussion on the Wheel

Post by BigRich » Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:25 pm

(What I was proposing was that draft picks 1-4 were based on the grid and 5-16 on the standings btw.) Not really hard to do what I proposed. Effectively the grid I put up is just a continuation of our current wheel cycle for the picks 1-4 based on our current draft grid. How as commissioner would you do it? After the end of the season is run the game currently sets up the draft order for you as a commissioner figuring all the tie breakers for you. You just copy down the generated order 1-16 on paper or in a word document, then insert the picks 1-4 manually from the grid while running a slash thru their team name on your 1-16 list and populate the positions 5-16 from the list you wrote down starting at the top of the list on down. Should only take a few minutes and not much more than we do now copying in every position 1-16 manually anyway.

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Re: Discussion on the Wheel

Post by NoelDenuyst » Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:38 am

I honestly don't have a very strong opinion either for or against the wheel. Although I'm just starting my first rebuild with the wheel, I might have a strong opinion about it in a few months.

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